There were more choices than this. Gary Johnson, the guy I voted for, still got a decent amount of votes. As much as Romney tried to convince me to vote for Obama though, I just couldn't do it. I cannot any longer vote for the lesser of two evils when both are evil. I am ultimatly glad that Romney did not win but still not happy that the vast majority of people in the USA are complete morons and vote for morons.
No, but it can put us on a downward spiral faster. And Obama is ready to kick us right down that slope. Our country may not "die", but it's not going to be a great place to live if he's going to run his second term like his first, which he probably is. So it's not too much of an overreaction.
And it's not for you to say, unless you live in America.
If I could vote it'd be for Obama, not that Romney who wants 'roll down airplane windows.' Abortion is women's rights, it's not murder because the ferilized egg isn't a conscious person. What makes a person precious, I believe, is their consciousness, as in their thoughts, feeling and memories. A ffertilized egg doesn't have any of that. It has almost no history. Romney wouldn't give women and females like me a choice in what they wanted to do with their bodies, most likely even in case of rape. I have no trust in Romney.
That windows comment was a lie by the media. What he was actually proposing was for a method of quickly ventilating an airplane to remove smoke or noxious fumes while on the ground, so you don't have to whip out the oxygen masks sitting at the terminal.
It is murder, because that egg is no longer just an egg, it is the potential to be a person. And the women's choice, is her choice to have sex. A baby is the consequence, and abortion is just to avoid responsibility.
In rape cases, that baby didn't choose it's father. So it deserves to die? There is always adoption. ALWAYS. And how many abortion cases are actually rape? You might want to check this out. [link] Most of the reasons are selfish. Women avoiding the fact that they had sex and STILL knowing the laws of nature, aborted the baby for selfish reasons. Babies are not the choice, they are the consequence.
You should look up Pam Stenzel. She was a rape baby. And her life was precious, and now she's speaking all over the world, making a difference in teens lives. AND she's met with her mother and they've reconnected and met and everything. You think that a rape baby shouldn't have that chance? A fertilized egg becomes a person. Just because they can't think then doesn't mean they never will.
And if it's not murder than why do most women, after getting their first abortion, regret it and never do it again?
OMG, let me say first that I love your icon and I think your argument is fabulous. Sometimes birth control fails. It IS the potential to be a person, yet it's STILL not a person and it's not a 'precious thing'. There are no memories, no feelings, it's not a conscious person. It's not a baby yet. Some people can't care for the baby, but why bother having it? Adoption is something that can be used. Most reasons behind abortion are financial, the average cost of a hospital birth is $8,000. And previous care is about 1,500. The costs are staggeringly high. Lack of adequate care can lead to high risk complications during birth and infancy. Especially if it's a rape baby, WHY would the mother want it? It would be constant reminder of what had happened to her.
There are also mental or physical complications that can sometimes cost the mother her life. Some children can be born with defects if a result from incest, it's likely possibility. Why should every women let white men in congress decide what she can do with her body? This is women's rights and I definitely don't support abortion being banned. Not ALL abortions are due to shrugging off 'responsibility'.
I never said anything about birth control. I know it doesn't work. It says so on the back of the box. I should know, I take it for my hormonal imbalance.
It is seen in babies when they are about a month or so maybe, that even when it is just past the fetal stage, scientists have observed them responding to their mothers voice by moving. When they get even older, they respond even more through movement responding to certain things there mother says or when she sings or talks. It can be lulled to sleep. It feels the vibrations and responds to them. Consciousness is being able to respond to our surroundings. The baby is conscious. The baby can feel. I've seen an abortion video. I watched the fetus flinch away from the needle before it was injected into it.
In order to say its not precious, you have have to be able to look at a trash can of fetuses and feel no remorse or sadness whatsoever. Watch an abortion. It's not precious, right? But we all know that people can't. It's hard to look at something like that. I cried. Why would it be so hard? Because subconsciously we know what it really is.
And just because it may not be a person at that point by your standards, it's still alive. The cells in our body are alive, they live and die too. How much more alive is this cell that becomes so much more. Cells are precious to our bodies. How much more precious is a cell that can develop way beyond that?
And abortions can be performed at any time during a woman's pregnancy. Even past the time when it h as a little heart beat, little organs, little hands and feet. It's still human. It's still a little person. Research shows that babies have memories of the womb when they are born, that's why babies feel calm and fall asleep better when bundled tight in warm blankets. That's why they respond to their mothers voice more than anyone else's because they remember the sound before they were even born. They remember their mothers and are immediately dependent on their presence and feel calmer and safer there.
Why bother having the baby? My question to you then is why bother having sex when you KNOW it's how humans reproduce and you KNOW that birth control already doesn't work all the time, and you know that sex makes a baby? Another life?
Rape babies should be given a chance just like anyone else. They can't control who there father is, or under what circumstances they are born. Why should they have to die. And as for the constant reminder thing, let me refer you also to Pam Stenzel. She was a rape baby. She lived. And she is speaking to schools all over the country, educating teens and young adults about stds, premarital sex, keeping them educated and safe and to parents, teaches and other adults how to educate the teens and young adults, how to help and approach them, and how to keep them safe. And she knows a lot because she worked in a pregnancy center.
If she didn't exist, what would have happened to all the people she impacted, who need her? Her husband? Her three kids? Every teenage girl that received her help in the pregnancy center? All the kids she impacted in the schools? The parents? Her mother, who she found and reconnected with, who loves her? What about them? Pam Stenzel is only one of the rape babies that lived and became more than just rape reminders as society has deemed them.
It's hard to say anyway in rape situations, but if I thought rape babies couldn't be anything more than burdens and awful reminders instead of the people they are by themselves, then I would agree with you. But they can be. Pam is proof. She's on YouTube if you want to look her up. I'll try to link it: [link]
And these clips with the blue backgrounds. They have their own playlist but I couldn't find it. You probably can though. [link]
My problem anyway is with the women who chose to have sex, and then taking the result, which is a baby who's life isn't the moms anymore, and doing away with it like a bad dream avoiding the responsibility. A baby is a consequence, sex is the woman's choice.
Yeah, I don't think fetuses are precious at all. I really don't. If they're not born yet, to me, they're not people. And if the mother doesn't want a child, it's her choice. I don't think it's a child until it's born therefore I have no emotional; ties to them. I am completely pro-choice. People want to have sex, people don't want babies. That's pretty clear. Women these days want to remain independent and not bound down by a child, birthing expenses are expensive as I've said before, sorry for the repition. Rape babies serve as horrible reminders to some women, those I understand completely. Why live with something that will only remind you of what went wrong with your life? Some people are more able to actually have rape babies. I applaud them. Sorry for the short reply, I'm just really tired. ;-;
They aren't just killing the fetuses anymore, they are killing almost full term babies now. Are they still not babies? Not precious?
And because the media and today's cloture makes sex such a game and tool for pleasure does it mean we should ignore the purpose for which it serves? To reproduce?
And a child is a gift, not a burden. You were one once, and so was I. Children are gifts that are meant to be given at the right time. So is sex. If these are given at the wrong time, they can't be accepted properly and fulfill there purpose. Like opening a gift before its your birthday. If children weren't important, why do we love them? Why do we treat them like humans only after they come out of the womb?
What about the children that they may decide to have later, to start a family? What will they say to them? I killed your baby brother, but I decided to let you live? Congratulations?
Doesn't make sense if thy aren't worth it to be loved before then does it? Then why is it our instincts to do so?
And why are you treating a rape baby like a thing, and object? If they become people just like us, aren't they someone? (Again, the Pam Stenzel vids. She talks about her situation as a rape baby). If they are just objects now, then why are the ones that live considered people, not objects? Is it fair? Why are they any less important or any less human then we are? Why dont they deserve the same chances?
And re read over my previous comment again please, because you didnt give me any answers to my questions or showed signs that you considered my points. Anything that said that I was wrong about abates being precious no matter what form.
And again, the problem I have is with the people who have sex that don't consider the consequences.
No, I don't think they're precious nor true babies. Sex doesn't have to be only for reproduction, there's nothing wrong with having it for pleasure. People have sex to do both. It's acceptable. Sex is fine, in my word, as long as protection is used, or if you're meaning to have a child. What's a blessing or a gift if it's forced on you? Sex is the decision of the people in the act, yet people make mistakes. Maybe they forget, which abortion should be allowed. But if they're idiotic and don't care then fuck them. It all depends on the conditions, if it's a rape baby, or a baby that will kill the mother when it's born, or will have a horrific medical condition that will scar it's life, then those are easily explainable. Yet, why would parents feel the need to tell their children about previous abortions? Unless asked, why would they? You're ignoring the consequences of being unprepared for a child that can be brought upon the mother and father. A child isn't a child until it's born. So no, I don't think they're 'precious'. A child CAN be a burden if it's one you don't want and don't love. No, they don't become 'something' until they are born. I don't think so. I was not a rape child, were you? They are not people like us, they're of human species, but they are fetuses, they are unborn. YES, I have problems with people who don't consider the consequences too, I agree with you on that.
Did you even look at my links? Pam Stenzel? You didn't answer any of my questions.
Ad rape babies aren't people? So Pam isn't a person? Please tell me you hear yourself. So you can just walk up to a rape baby, who's now a fully grown adult and tell them that they are human but they aren't a person? Does that even make sense? How are they human and not people? That makes no sense.
Your not making sense, and you didn't answer my questions, you just repeated everything you said in the last comment. Again. And did you miss the part about full term babies being aborted? How they're not fetuses anymore because they are out of the fetal stage? And it's kinda hard to "forget" the process of nature that's been drilled into us especially in our culture? Teen mom? You don't just forget. And aborting a baby because you made a mistake is dodging responsibility. You don't just forget the processes of nature, especially if they happen to your own body. Would people even think to use protection if they forgot? And I can tell you a lot of reasons why sex for pleasure won't end well.
And I wasn't a rape baby, but I know people who are. And I can guarantee that they are people.
And how often do these rape babies with serious health conditions that will kill the other even happen? Not often enough to allow the abortion of all infants. That's infanticide. Even if it were that situation, it would have to a medically approved condition. But that doesn't happen often.
I implore you. Watch Pam Stenzel and tell me she's not a person. She's worked in a critical pregnancy center for ten years. She talks abut abortion, the people who suffer from that decision, herself being a rape baby.
I'm tired too, so ill leave you with a few questions. Just to think about.
According to what you told me, babies after they are just born aren't people either. They don't have memories, or emotions, or personality yet. So why do we keep them? Why are they precious? Why is killing an infant murder in the US?
And abortion can be performed even after the fetal stage. Up until they are born. They
So if a 12 year old girl is raped and gets pregnant, she should carry it to term (possibly killing herself and the baby) because an egg carries the possibility of new life? What about a women who has no home, no income, and no way to pay enormous hospital bills? Should she give birth to her child on the street and watch him die from malnutrition?
You also say to put them up for adoption. Tens of THOUSANDS of children are waiting, wishing for adoption, and you want to add more?! Not to mention that children who live in foster care are often living in sub-standard condition, winding up malnourished or emotionally scarred. So yes, let's put even MORE children into this outdated and disturbing system.
I agree that a fertilized egg can become a new life, ready to take on the world. But, it can also become a tumor (see gestational trophoblastic tumor), a dead body, or even nothing at all. I would put to notion that it is more important to save existing life then it is to destroy for the POSSIBILITY of new life. I believe it is better to let the rape VICTIM attempt to have a chance to continue to their dreams without the result of THEIR nightmares staring them in the face everyday. An egg deserves a chance, but a living person deserves it more.
One last statement i would like to make is a quote from Medical News Today ([link]). "It is normal for a woman to experience a range of emotions after an abortion, such as relief, sadness, happiness and feelings of loss. Each woman is unique. Many women feel that they have made the right decision after having an abortion."
Refer to my previous statement. FEW ABORTION CASES are ACTUALLY RAPE CASES percent wise.
And the situations you've described, are rare too. And you think a twelve year old is going to go to an abortion clinic on their own without someone telling her to; someone who could have helped her? And there is always help for those who need it. That's what we have social security for. and it's not "the possibility" of a new life. 99% of the time, it is. That's how nature works. Complications happen. But you're going to destroy that life because there's a POSSIBILITY it will become a tumor or dead body before you even know? And again, the kid did not choose their father. They can't control what they look like, or of what circumstances they came to be. What if you were a rape baby? You deserve to die because of what your father did? all YOUR dreams taken away? Again, check out Pam Stenzel's story and her life and what she's doing now. they even have clips on youtube of her speaking to students about sex and pregnancy and disease and changing lives. What about her kids? What about her husband? what about all the people she's impacted with her life, INCLUDING her mother who she now has a great relationship with, that would never have happened if her mother decided she should die because she may look like her father? A rape baby isn't just a RESULT. It's a HUMAN BEING. IT didn't do anything. And they should be denied love, care, LIFE, because of how they came to be? Because their mother can't stand to look at them?That's a pathetic reason if i ever heard one.
And yes, I KNOW there are thousands of kids waiting for adoption. And i KNOW that the system needs to improve. But they're alive. They get to shape their own future. They can dream and think and maybe change the world someday. You don't know. But they LIVE. and you can't disregard the people that came from these same conditions and made a difference in the world.
And if a living person deserves life more, then a new life should just be thrown away?
And Pam Stenzel, who i've heard speak live, worked in a pregnancy center. She said that the girls and women that came to her after getting abortions regretted it. I trust a personal account more than a medical journal.
Should we just ignore such cases because they are rare? These are NOT impossibilities and to be denied all right to save themselves and their future because the result of a grievous crime or mistake? There always needs to be second chances. As far as Social Security is concerned, I do not believe the Government is THAT good at helping the unfortunate. IF it was there would be no homeless in the USA. These small tragedies, these rare occurrences, are so much bigger for the people who have to live them and who are we to take away this important choice for them?
Pam Stenzel said herself that women reproduction are complicated. The egg has to get inseminated, go through the tubes, attach to the wall, ect, ect. And while all of this is going on there are millions of ways for it to go wrong and end up with no child. In fact there is only a 20% chance that you will get new life, and that is when NOTHING goes wrong.
No birth control method is 100% effective. If you believe that every fertilized egg is equivalent to, or is, a baby, then you must acknowledge that you may be creating and expelling many “babies” in your lifetime along with your menstrual period. If simply fertilizing an egg were all it took to become “pregnant,” most of would need to add a few more pregnancies – ones we never even noticed – to our lifetime total. Are all of these lives that we are killing because they had the chance to be real living babies?
A fetus does not produce a heartbeat until six-seven weeks after the beginning of a "pregnancy." Before this there is nothing but a growing mass of tissue growing in your stomach. Is that a baby already? what makes it different a tumor or even scar tissue? Are you even taking away a life, when no life has even begun.
The Child does not choose their parents, none of that can be controlled, it is true. But then should it not be the choice of the mother? Childbirth is painful, the hospital bill enormous, and the responsibility bigger than you could ever dream. Many would-be-mothers are not ready for any of this. Why should they not be given a choice. It is their body, their life, to do with what they choose. Who are WE to decide what is right for them? It takes a strong woman to go through with a pregnancy, especially when it is not planned and I give Pam Stenzel's mother all of the respect and credit she deserves. But there are women out there who are different, they are not strong enough to go through it. Others dream of greater things in life and are not ready to settle down, or even pause. All women deserve a choice, for it is their lives, their dreams, on the line for those nine months and those 18 years and those LIFETIMES.
Having a child changes your entire life and it should be YOUR choice. For then only you will be responsible for the consequences of your actions.
Sorry it took me so long to reply. It's been a rough couple weeks. <: D
No, I am not saying we should ignore such cases, but in view of the argument it doesn't have to do with the point I was making that those cases are rare and it's hard to determine in such cases, even for me. But my point was that most women that get abortions are pregnant teens or women who think they are a burden. And I agree that social security isn't doing a good job and needs improvement, but that's what it's there for, to help people like that.
And again, sex makes babies. It's what happens. It's nature. Despite what could go wrong statistically, the purpose of sex is reproduction. If it was such an iffy process, than it wouldn't be how we naturally reproduce. And 9.9 times out of ten, a nothing goes wrong and a baby happens. It's how we work. It's why we have such a big problem with teen moms that now they can make shows about them. Pam's point was that we are easy to damage by STDs because we are more complicated. Sex itself doesn't damage our reproduction system.
And birth control doesn't kill fertilized eggs, it kills lingering sperm. It doesn't touch fertilized eggs. And I never said anything about birth control or how effective it is. I know it's not that effective. And the eggs in your menstrual cycle aren't fertilized. They can't become anything. And abortion done by your own body is different than man interfering and physically killing the cell against the body's will or natural processes.
And in order to say that is a fetus really isn't a baby, you would have to be able to look at a trash can full of dead ones and not feel any remorse or sadness. They weren't babies, they didn't have a heartbeat, but why does that mental image make people cringe?because they know what it really is. Their subconscious knows. It was a life. And even though it didn't have a heartbeat doesn't mean it wasn't alive. Cells in our body are alive, and they don't have nor can they even develop heartbeats. But they live and die. How much more alive then is a cell that creates a human, a cell that can develop a heartbeat, a brain, organs, personality, people? How much more precious then are those cells? Even then, a woman is allowed to abort her baby at any time during her pregnancy. It's legal. Even after it has a heartbeat. Even after it looks like a baby and moves and has limbs and organs.
I don't think it should be the choice of the mother even then. But that is a tricky situation. I believe that even then, it is not the mother's life only that she is making decisions for, but for an unborn child as well. And I agree it's women's choice. But when you say women's choice, it's the women's choice to have sex. It's the women that choose to have sex, knowing what could happen what will probably happen (we've all taken sex Ed) and do it anyway and decide that they don't want the baby they chose to make? There is no such thing in a situation where a women chooses to have sex as an unplanned child or a surprise baby. She chose to have sex. She knew that sex makes babies. And then she is surprised when she's pregnant? Then the baby is the consequence and it is her job then to take responsibility for the life she has now created with her partner. The baby isn't the choice, the sex is. The baby is the result. Those are the women I have a problem with, not necessarily rape victims. It's still hard for me to say in that situation. It's hard for anyone to say.